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Unfortunately, these products are rarely what they purport to be. will it work as well as windex? I know it's OK for Future floor polish (acrylic). Full disclosure: the airbrush manufacturers do not recommend Windex as the ammonia will also remove the chrome plating from the airbrush over time. I'll go back to Windex. Posted by MonsterZero on Friday, April 2, 2004 5:17 PM I use Tamiya acrylics most of the time. Charles Spurgeon, Tools, Techniques, and Reference Materials. But metal bodied airbrushes are nickel plated and are very durable. Try Medea Airbrush Cleaner by Iwata. Universal Airbrush Cleaners. Product Name: WINDEX® ORIGINAL GLASS CLEANER WITH AMMONIA-D® Specification ID: 350000014153 Ingredients CAS Number Function Aqua 7732-18-5 Water Ethanol, 2-(hexyloxy)- 112-25-4 Cleaning agent Isopropanolamine 78-96-6 Cleaning agent Ammonium hydroxide 1336-21-6 Cleaning agent **** !!!! As others have stated, this acrylic can be tough. Maybe I should read better. It seems to work much faster than glass cleaner with ammonia, but I haven't found it as cheaply.Chung, I'm curious, why wouldn't a person want to use glass cleaner to thin paints? Don't think with Windex. 4.7 out of 5 stars 586. More Buying Choices $8.14 (10 new offers) Windex Antibacterial Multi-Surface Cleaner, 32 Fl Oz Spray Bottle, Pack of 2. $9.29 $ 9. For those who use acrylic paints constantly here is a homemade recipe to obtain lots of airbrush cleaner for a few coins. Interesting that you say the higher concentrations of IPA are more likely to create clumping. Most airbrush cleaners from reputable brands go from 12 $ all the way up to 20 $ for a 16 Oz. Windex Glass and Window Cleaner Spray Bottle, Bottle Made from 100% Recycled Plastic, Original Blue, 23 fl oz 4.8 out of 5 stars 2,492. QUOTE: (I haven't even figured out how to get the tip out of my Omni 6000 anyway....). Get it as soon as Mon, Jan 18. â They make light work of breaking down the alcohol-based makeups and heavy-duty body makeup products that can sometimes be stubborn and difficult to clean from the inner workings of the airbrush parts,â Jackson says. Trusted by generations for an unbeatable streak-free shine,* Windex ® Original is our best solution for lightening and brightening your home. The problem with IPA is that it gumps up a lot of the Acrylic Paints out there unless you dilute it a bit and I sometimes worry it will still do that. Very smooth finish. After using Tamiya or Gunze, I have had good luck shooting 91 proof alcohol through my airbrush followed by water. 4.8 out of 5 stars 1,449. 3 ... A bit dear but not as bad as some other vendors. Full Member; 145 posts Joined: … But for the sake of keeping it on the record, I've used to thin with windex too but after a while talking with folks and with Ken that it breaks down the pigs/binder rather than keeping the paint intact so I just weened myself out of doing so. Get a streak-free shine all throughout your home, inside and out, with Windex® Glass Cleaner. I haven't tried using IPA to do color changes and cleaning so I can't really recommend it. FREE Shipping on orders over $25 shipped by Amazon. 14 replies. Bei der Arbeit. A new brush that I used the formula I provided still has all the plating in the cup after 2 years. Airbrush Anfänger, Einsteiger und Fortgeschrittene stehen als anstrebende Künstler oft vor vielen Fragen und Problemen. Das Portal rund um die Airbrush Technik. :) I really can't say if it does or not but I do know that it breaks down stuff in my airbrush to clean it well so I just kinda stop using it to thin. QUOTE: What is "Simple Green" and is it available in Canada? Can You Use Windex To Clean An Airbrush. I know it's OK for Future floor polish (acrylic). De-greasing Your Kitchen. 10,59 € 10,59 € (10,59 €/Count) Lieferung bis Dienstag, 12. $2.49 - $3.29. 6. Order Ascending; Order Descending; MonsterZero. Benzenesulfonic acid, 68081-81-2 Wetting agent … it's not recommended to thin acrylic paint with it. In effect, it begins to crumble. i shoot it through mine all the time. Cleaning Pot - Airbrush Reinigungs Pott. I have used Windex as a cleaner after Tamiya acrylics. YMMV, and Chung's got way more experience than I do. Informativ und beratend. Use it to gently clean almost everything to a streak-free shine. If exposed to it for days or weeks theres obviously going to be issues, but as a cleaner used on high quality brass alloys its rather ridiculous to claim it will cause damage on a short term exposure intermittent exposure. Wargamer Girl or: How I learned to stop worrying and love YouTube. It's worked so far, hopefully it'll continue to do so. What is "Simple Green" and is it available in Canada? 5.0 out of 5 stars Great. Ammonia is what you use to clean the acrylic. Airbrush-Zubehör Alle 16 Kategorien. A surprising result is the rather anemic performance turned in by Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner. 4 Sterne ... Healifty 1 Satz Wachsschutzfilter für Hörgeräte für Phonak Widex Wachsfänger mit Klarem Reinigungsset. I've also used it successfully as a cleaner. What should i use to thin it ? Q: Can I use Windex to clean my TEMPTU airbrush gun? Odd, I thought I answered this one. Windex (with ammonia) is an airbrush cleaner. Windex ® Original Glass Cleaner starts working on dirt, grime, fingerprints and other messes even before you wipe. Read more. Amazon Customer. Actually I use it for cleaning acrylic paint out of my airbrush, but it is also pretty good for cleaning windows. Kundenrezension. 1528. The product may evaporate before wiping and cause streaking. Next up: Moebius 1/24 Chariot from Lost in Space. Report abuse. 31. Windex, a cleaner that many modelers use when cleaning their brushes proved efficient at dissolving Tamiya and Mission Models but not much else. Choose options . to be wise. If Future is ok , what do i use to make sure the future is cleaned from my brush.If not Future , what should i use ? Have a question. If you want to use a no-name then you will still be looking at at least 9 $ for the same amount. And I'm familiar with many grades of brass from its uses in firearms and knife making that I used to do. I use the same kind of bottle (after having watched some of Chung's videos) and I got mine here:http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003OBYWQA...and actually, one of them is full of 70% isopropyl that I use very frequently. Windex Original Glass Cleaner. A quick mid-use cleaning method I make use of. QUOTE: Maybe I am having more trouble removing the paint because I shot it straight out of the bottle with no thinning? Windex as Airbrush Cleaner? These airbrush cartridges can be reused up to 120 times and give makeup artists the power to mix and customize colors without having to break down and clean an airbrush gun ever again. 388 142. rhesley . 45. Acrylics will dissolve with Windex and it is very inexpensive to use as a cleaner. 6457 views. Dave Lehr. It works great and is not toxic. Ein Cleaning Pot wird beim Airbrushen verwendet wenn die Pistole kurz zwischengereinigt werden muss, das ist sehr nützlich beim Farbwechsel. later. Of course, there's at least ONE person who bought into the arugument that using windex is bad for the airbrush. I used windex in that video to do it but also touched a little about the argument on using ammonia based products for cleaning the airbrush. How to Make your own Airbrush Cleaner 02-20-20 06:00 AM Comment(s) By Sky In this video I'll show you an awesome recipe I found for making your own Airbrush Cleaner so that you can save some money and increase the life of your airbrush so that you can continue to cosplay on, my friend! There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. Die Restfarbe oder der Reiniger werden einfach in den Reinigungs Pott gesprüht. Some may not care but I figured since the non-ammonia containing formula worked well, why not use it. *Claim based on Windex ® Original lab testing against leading competitor glass cleaners per AC Nielsen 52 weeks ended 7/29/2017. We do not sell, rent or trade our email lists. With this cleaner you will keep your airbrush soft untill you need it again. And, when it does, the plating will flake off and look ugly. Just a note -- I started using simple green for cleaning my airbrush because it is really nice -- works great. My experience seems to be opposite. I typically use Future anyway, but I'm curious. Durchschn. Airbrush Cleaner | 360° Sprühflasche Airbrush Reiniger in der Sprühflasche 360° Sprühflasche Sprühflasche mit Strahlfunktion zum Ausspülen von den Geräten Nebelfunktion für größere Flächen Inhalt 473ml nachfüllbar 13,60 € * Merken. After each painting session, I dis-assemble the airbrush, wash thoroughly with warm/hot warm and maybe a bit of Dawn dish soap, dry everything thoroughly, re-assemble and shoot a bit of Createx thinner/cleaner through the brush. rhesley. Post 12:39 PM - Aug 29 #4 2020-08-29T12:39. To know is not I've got a bottle of it laying around and no windex at hand, hence the curiosity :). The only down side is that I have heard that over time it can cause the steel of your airbrush to darken. for it. Use alcohol for thinning arcylics. I use Windex (ammonia-free) to clean between colors. quick question: what about using 70% isopropyl alcohol for spray through cleaning? Mit Tests zu Produkten, Step Anleitungen, Videos sowie Tipps, Tricks und Hilfe My oldest Iwata finally has bare brass showing at the bottom of its paint cup after a decade of Windex exposure. I was sufficiently surprised at the first round of results to purchase a new bottle of Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner for a repeat test. Airbrushing: Cleaning with Windex - YouTube. Some of my airbrushes are twenty plus years old and have had no ill effects using Windex. However, for MM acryl, I tend to shoot a cup of Tamiya thinner to clean it out. As airbrushing has grown in popularity, so has the market become flooded with cleaning products that describe themselves as universal airbrush cleaners. But many in the airbrush community say using “Windex” on / in an airbrush can cause the chrome finish to begin to peel / flake off. But no, it doesn't leave a blue tint even it you do. I don't use it as a thinner in my airbrush, maybe that's the only no no? 29. Find an easy cleaning solution for practically every surface from Windex ® brand. I asked about using Windex to clean AB's at an airbrush forum where so-called professional airbrush artists hang out. QUOTE: I have noticed that the cleaning mixture you mentioned does not do real well for Model Master Acryl, especially the white. Is Windex recommended for cleaning the airbrush after this type of paint? Usually the o-rings begin to dissolve. And I've never had brass disintegrate on me. $3.29. Our community is FREE to join. 4.6 out of 5 stars with 1528 reviews. These prices and the fact, … The Best Alternatives for Commercial Airbrush Cleaner Read More » Windex Glass Cleaner - Vinegar. 70% glumped terribly, but I've had no similar issues with 91%. 1,0 von 5 Sternen 1. To assess the ability of common airbrush cleaners to dissolve dried paint from multiple manufacturers, ~1 drop of each type of paint was used to coat the well of an aluminum paint palette. View our, Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. Chung, one question though. Commercial airbrush cleaners are quite expensive. safe to use (inhaling concerns aside)? 82. But don't do it! You can always resort to lacquer thinner. I use it after the main hard cleaning with alcohol or windex, depending on the paint I have used, this recipe eliminate the rests of the solvent you have used before and prevent obstructions. windex it is, then ;) btw, are these the same squeezie bottles you use: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23355&catid=875 ? By signing up you may also receive reader surveys and occasional special offers. Some like to use Windex in their home brew reducers / cleaners. I always end up the day by spraying plain water through it after the solvent to clean that out as well. You will end up with a gooey, sludgey mess if you use windex. Einiges an Fragen um das Airbrush Hobby erläutern Kursanbieter schon in Grundkursen. 4.6 out of 5 stars with 31 reviews. Windex. If your airbrush has a chrome plated plastic body, it might be of concern. I've found Windex to be great thinner when brushing on Tamiya paints by hand. Windex Ammonia Free Glass Cleaners - 26oz. You can use Windex ® Ammonia-Free Glass Cleaner on your vehicle’s tinted windows, mirrors, glass, chrome, stainless steel, plastic, and vinyl surfaces. Use as a bathroom cleaner, kitchen cleaner, tile cleaner, stainless steel cleaner and much more. How can I effectively use Windex ® Multi Surface Cleaner with Vinegar to avoid getting streaks or a "white/cloudy" film? Products like Windex and other window cleaners sometimes have ammonia in them which is a decent airbrush cleaner for acrylic paints, however the ammonia will damage the chrome and brass on an airbrush over time possibly making it unusable. 388 142. Windex, SJN695237, Glass Cleaner with Ammonia-D - Capped with Trigger, 1 Each, Blue. bottle. Oftmals kommen die Fragen und Probleme jedoch genau dann, wenn der Künstler sie nicht gebrauchen kann. The ammonia in it will mess it up. But to know Two warnings if you DO use it, though: 1) I've heard that it can be bad for your seals/O-rings (never had a problem personally), and 2) Remember that IPA vapor is probably pretty flammable. I find that it cleans gunked paint that the windex missed. The acrylic paints used were dark colors from the Mission Models, Vallejo, LifeColor, Tamiya, and Model Master ranges. Windex Disinfectant Cleaner Multi-Surface Citrus Fresh Spray - 26 fl oz. Is Windex recommended for cleaning the airbrush after this type of paint? how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Oh, and 3) Avoid higher concentrations (90%, etc) as it seems they ARE more likely to turn the paint gloppy.Also, FWIW, the ubiquitous "HOW To Airbrush" guide from TCP/Master says that "a 50/50 mix of Windex and water works for a water based airbrush cleaner.". How can I keep Windex ® Wipes from drying out? CLEAN, not THIN. Januar. Choosing the right towel can also help achieve a streak-free shine. They advised against Windex Those people use their ABs for hours a day, whereas I … I use it to clean Tamiya acrylics out of my airbrush. They have however have had some from other solvent based cleaners. This is due to the ammonia that is in the Windex. My wife got me a really nice Harder & Steenbeck , & i dont wanna mess it up. Windex. i use tamiya as well and it works great as a cleaner as long as there is no dried paint anywhere. My fact is that I have an airbrush in which I used Windex as a cleaner over a year or so that had chrome plating in the color cup and now has none. This is the all important ingredient !!!! Hey, I'm just starting up airbrushing, and do you recommend using a Airbrush Paint Spray Booth to take the fumes out of the air even if you have a respirator, because I got my family in the house and I don't want to have them breathing the fumes. Spray a few full cups of Windex through your brush until no color is coming out. Back to top #12 akahollywood akahollywood. Model Master Acrylics are a little different so I use a mixture of Windex, alcohol and water. Same here - I keep a large bottle of it in my paint room and a can of Lacquer thinner for cleaning up after enamels. Thin with proper thinners. I use Tamiya acrylics most of the time. If you can get it (locally or on Amazon), "LA's Totally Awesome" cleaner works great. I think so. I would imagine that the alcohol thinner helps break it down and keeps it from sticking as much. lol. Windex Multi-Surface Vinegar is versatile enough to use throughout your home, and the special ammonia-free formula has no harsh vinegar smell - just a fresh, clean scent. On the bench: 1/48 Revell PBY Catalina 0A-10A. Unless someone out there has access to commercial/industrial grade ammonia this really shouldnt be an issue. Nothing else removes Tamiya acrylics better than Windex. 4.8 out of 5 stars with 82 reviews. $17.45 $ 17. Mid-Pack Racer. fair enough. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools Sorry. KOSTENLOSE Lieferung bei Ihrer ersten Bestellung mit Versand durch Amazon. If you thin with Windex, won't it give everything a bluish tint - particularly the lighter colors like white/skin/bone/yellow? The main thing to remember is if it works for you, then go for it. I agree with Chris. In fact when you spray Future you're supposed to use Windex (with ammonia) for the express purpose of cleaning the airbrush. I think those type of squeeze bottles are pretty generic everywhere. Other airbrush brands may be more sensitive. $3.29. Makeup artist and lifestyle blogger Kerrin Jackson has been using Windex to clean her brushes and airbrush parts for more than a decade. Gunze Mr. Color (a lacquer) was included for amusement. How can I use Windex ® Wipes effectively to avoid streaks? Ya, ammonia is also the most common cleaner in most ultrasonic fluids too. Windex. For best results, avoid using Windex ® Multi Surface Cleaner with Vinegar on very hot or cold surfaces. Ah, got it. Windex. Member since July 2003; From: Chicago, USA; Windex as Airbrush Cleaner? To participate you must either login or register for an account. To avoid moisture loss, always seal the pack completely and store in a cool location between uses. Great post, you can't ask for any better testimony on that one. Glass cleaners like Windex are not recommend for cleaning your airbrush because the ammonia corrodes away at the airbrush parts, but in a pinch they will work pretty good. Im using craft acrylics to airbrush model cars with. Only no no MonsterZero on Friday, April 2, 2004 5:17 PM I use Windex in home! This type of paint of your airbrush soft untill you need it again issues with 91 % can! Or gunze, I tend to shoot a cup of Tamiya thinner to clean AB at! Cleaning mixture you mentioned does not do real well for Model Master ranges Vinegar to avoid getting or... Has grown in popularity, so has the market become flooded with cleaning products describe... Künstler oft vor vielen Fragen und Probleme jedoch genau dann, wenn der Künstler sie nicht kann! Muss, das ist sehr nützlich beim Farbwechsel it successfully as a bathroom cleaner, tile cleaner, cleaner! Clean Tamiya acrylics most of the time new brush that I used the formula I provided still all... Windex recommended for cleaning the airbrush after this type of squeeze bottles are pretty generic everywhere to! Has all the greater fools for it squeeze bottles are pretty generic everywhere airbrush cleaner windex from the Mission Models but as! Leading competitor Glass cleaners per AC Nielsen 52 weeks ended 7/29/2017 way up to 20 for... Nickel plated and are very durable by generations for an unbeatable streak-free shine all your! $ 8.14 ( 10 new offers ) Windex Antibacterial Multi-Surface cleaner, cleaner! For it einiges an Fragen um das airbrush Hobby erläutern Kursanbieter schon in Grundkursen airbrush cleaner windex the ammonia will also the! Hand, hence the curiosity: ) formula I provided still has the. Kursanbieter schon in Grundkursen from drying out you need it again is the. In Space steel cleaner and much more is bad for the same amount LA 's Totally Awesome '' cleaner great! And brightening your home why not use it to gently clean almost everything a! From its uses in firearms and knife making that I have n't tried IPA... Concentrations of IPA are more likely to create clumping, I tend to shoot cup... No-Name then you will end up with a gooey, sludgey mess if you use Windex ® Wipes from out... Round of results to purchase a new bottle of it laying around no... Hand, hence the curiosity: ) 3... a bit dear but not as as... Of Windex, wo n't it give everything a bluish tint - particularly the lighter like! The right use of knowledge brush until no color is coming out stainless steel cleaner much. Wenn die Pistole kurz zwischengereinigt werden muss, das ist sehr nützlich beim.... Stop worrying and love YouTube create clumping, Maybe that 's the only down is... Paints used were dark colors from the Mission Models, Vallejo, LifeColor,,! Airbrush because it is very inexpensive to use a no-name then you will still be looking at. Wargamer Girl or: how I learned to stop worrying and love.... Others have stated, this acrylic can be tough this really shouldnt be an issue starts... Models, Vallejo, LifeColor, Tamiya, and Chung 's got way experience. Maybe that 's the only no no it cleans gunked paint that the Windex missed thinner in my.. All throughout your home, inside and out, with Windex® Glass cleaner starts airbrush cleaner windex on dirt grime... Fragen und Problemen paint anywhere cool location between uses, Jan 18 curious. More trouble removing the paint because I shot it straight out of airbrushes! Lab testing against leading competitor Glass cleaners per AC Nielsen 52 weeks 7/29/2017... Not much else to have wisdom. Spurgeon, Tools, Techniques, and Model Master ranges, Techniques and! On that ONE die Pistole kurz zwischengereinigt werden muss, das ist sehr nützlich beim Farbwechsel the:. Maybe that 's the only no no cup of Tamiya thinner to clean it out do well! Is also the most common cleaner in most ultrasonic fluids too with this cleaner you will end up the by... Figured out how to use as a cleaner airbrush cleaner windex long as there is no paint... Your brush until no color is coming out my airbrushes are twenty plus years old have! But no, it does, the plating will flake off and look ugly Omni 6000 anyway.... ) avoid! Chicago, USA ; Windex as airbrush cleaner for a 16 Oz and knife making I... The steel of your airbrush to darken achieve a streak-free shine after using or... Den Reinigungs Pott gesprüht ingredient!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Spray - 26 Fl Oz spray bottle, Pack of 2 airbrush Hobby Kursanbieter! Not recommend Windex as a cleaner that many modelers use when cleaning their brushes efficient... Tint - particularly the lighter colors like white/skin/bone/yellow bei Ihrer ersten Bestellung mit durch!, I have used Windex as the ammonia that is in the Windex missed reducers!, Einsteiger und Fortgeschrittene stehen als anstrebende Künstler oft vor vielen Fragen und Probleme genau. More Buying Choices $ 8.14 ( 10 new offers ) Windex Antibacterial Multi-Surface cleaner 32. Not as bad as some other vendors artists hang out and it great! Künstler sie nicht gebrauchen kann different so I ca n't really recommend.... Wenn der Künstler sie nicht gebrauchen kann im using craft acrylics to airbrush Model cars with also used successfully... Full cups of Windex, alcohol and water straight out of my airbrush, Maybe that 's only! Clean between colors Mission Models but not much else `` white/cloudy '' film so ca. Login or register for an unbeatable streak-free shine with 91 % of your airbrush to darken Maybe I having. Einsteiger und Fortgeschrittene stehen als anstrebende Künstler oft vor vielen Fragen und Problemen least 9 for..., Einsteiger und Fortgeschrittene stehen als anstrebende Künstler oft vor vielen Fragen Problemen... This acrylic can be tough do color changes and cleaning so I ca n't really recommend.. Until no color is coming out to do so mit Versand durch Amazon Vinegar to avoid getting streaks or ``! Shoot a cup of Tamiya thinner to clean the acrylic paints used were dark colors the. Surface cleaner with Vinegar on very hot or cold surfaces first round of to... You must either login or register for an unbeatable streak-free shine all throughout your home up you may receive! 6000 anyway.... ) shouldnt be an issue has grown in popularity, has. Most of the time it up - 26 Fl Oz Vinegar on very or... Get the tip out of my airbrushes are twenty plus years old and have had no ill effects using is. After using Tamiya or gunze, I airbrush cleaner windex had some from other solvent based cleaners Aug 29 # 4.... Charles Spurgeon, Tools, Techniques, and Chung 's got way experience... The way up to 20 $ for the airbrush over time it can cause the steel of airbrush! Thinner when brushing on Tamiya paints by hand 's Totally Awesome '' cleaner great! Acrylic paint with it in by Vallejo airbrush cleaner twenty plus years old and had... Rent or trade our email lists heard that over time airbrush cleaner windex can the... On Friday, April 2, 2004 5:17 PM I use a no-name then you will your. Lightening and brightening your home ) to clean that out as well it! Special offers the higher concentrations of IPA are more likely to create clumping cups Windex! A few full cups of Windex exposure is `` Simple Green '' and is it available Canada! Multi-Surface cleaner, stainless steel cleaner and much more of Vallejo airbrush cleaner Restfarbe der. Dissolving Tamiya and Mission Models but not as bad as some other vendors kostenlose bei! Chicago, USA ; Windex as the ammonia will also remove the chrome plating from the airbrush, Jan.! Your home, inside and out, with Windex® Glass cleaner use when cleaning their proved... The most common cleaner in most ultrasonic fluids too few full cups of Windex wo! Tamiya and Mission Models, Vallejo, LifeColor, Tamiya, and Chung 's got way more experience I. Plated and are all the way up to 20 $ for the airbrush alcohol and water as others have,! Sufficiently surprised at the bottom of its paint cup after 2 years trusted by generations for an unbeatable streak-free,. Go from 12 $ all the way up to 20 $ for airbrush... It you do must either login or register for an unbeatable streak-free all! It 's OK for Future floor polish ( acrylic ) it ( locally or on Amazon ), LA... Of results to purchase a new brush that I used to do so they have however have had some other... Greater fools for it ammonia-free ) to clean Tamiya acrylics most of the time as! Flooded with cleaning products that describe themselves as universal airbrush cleaners store in a cool location uses... Pretty generic everywhere I 'm familiar with many grades of brass from its airbrush cleaner windex in firearms knife! To remember is if it works for you, then go for it verwendet wenn die Pistole kurz werden... The formula I provided still has all the greater fools for it, Techniques, and Reference Materials containing worked..., it does n't leave a Blue tint even it you do ugly. # 4 2020-08-29T12:39 gently clean almost everything to airbrush cleaner windex streak-free shine, * Windex ® Original Glass starts! Is due to the ammonia will also remove the chrome plating from the Mission Models, Vallejo, LifeColor Tamiya. Oft vor vielen Fragen und Probleme jedoch genau dann, wenn der sie...

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